The Fenton Files

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This page aims to capture some of the thoughts from Bruce Fenton and some of the core devs about RavenCoin, it's purpose and future. It's not comprehensive, just some of the interesting comments spotted on the community chats.

Discord 1 refers to the original discord which has since been deleted by it's owner. Discord 2 refers to the 2nd discord that was set up by the community. Links on community page.


23 Sept 2018 - Baltic Honeybadger 2018 Bitcoin conference

Title: Global Ledgers: Scaling & Capacity for Legacy Securities Systems in the Age of Atomic Swaps

Conference: Baltic Honeybadger 2018 Bitcoin conference, Riga, Sep 22-23

Bruce talks about the history of securities, it's current problems, and block chain.

Talk at: https://youtu.be/D2WXxgZ8h-0?t=1h48m23s

Slides at: https://twitter.com/brucefenton/status/1043833386257854464?s=21

Bruce Fenton (Discord):

I didn’t mention Raven because as soon as you mention a specific product at certain events people stop listening and are closed minded

Also so many people don’t even understand tokenized securities that it’s best to explain that first

Once they understand this concept then Rvn makes more sense

12 Sept 2018 - Telegram

Bruce Fenton: Because this is protocol development not something like an ICO scam

Ravencoin is a protocol — that’s it — it’s software

There is NO ONE to “make announcements” or “sign partnerships”

It’s open source - for all community members to contribute how they wish — this is a VERY VERY different model than centralized projects who did ICOs etc

If you are expecting centralized sales, marketing, announcements — that will never happen with this project and people should know that

What the project does do is focus on building secure and useful software— anyone can contribute and decide if they want to run that software

25 Aug 2018 - Discord 2

consensus works in open source by open discussion over what code to run

Everyone should contribute to the discussion

There is no division between devs and non devs - there is no special authority who bestows the title “developer” - it’s just based on what code people run and who decides to run what they choose

So we don’t say “just do what the devs say” because there are no specific “devs” with any official role - just people who have done a lot of work and implemented the vision in the paper

Anyone can be a dev

Anyone on this page can write code

And call themselves a dev

No one has authority over any other

We the users and holders have the authority by deciding what code to run

So if you say “trust the devs” the first question one needs to ask is “who? / which devs”

The way to flush that out is by discussion

Open and free discussion

There’s also no special authority for any other person - no ceo or founder or master node or author or dev has special power or authority

But main point is that this is open source — there is no authority

We don’t want to ever discourage discussion — especially over security related issues

All this project is is a group of people choosing to run code based on what they think Ravencoin means and what code is effective for that definition — every person has the right to discuss what they think that vision is or means

The term hoi polloi is funny but it’s the antithesis of what open source is about — there is no “commoners” or higher class of people

There’s no special category called developers

It’s not ideal to say that people should defer to devs — that’s got a lot of issues I can explain —

what if a new dev joins tomorrow and creates the code to change the supply to 5 trillion with an insta mine of 1 trillion to himself and burning all addresses bringing in R5?

Would you say “stay in your lane, don’t discuss forks”? Of course not - it’s not what the coin is

It’s super relevant and key to discuss things like hard forks — any hard fork changes the consensus mechanism and the rules which everyone on the network previously agreed to

So it’s really a big responsibility for every user to know and care what all code changes are

There’s also a HUGE difference between non technical people discussing technical matters and overall DESIGN matters

You won’t see me talking specific code almost ever — it’s not my area of expertise

But overall economics, functionality and design is an area of expertise I have for this coin — Andy one can develop expertise and have opinions on the direction — anyone can choose to listen or not - and run what they want based on a combo of vision and capabilities and functions with the specific code

Well this is why consensus is so important

Just something to plan for — for the future


We can all continually improve the quality of review of code changes

Bitcoin

Bitcoin system has worked best and that’s what Ravencoin is developed after

Bitcoin has made many leaps forward on this - there are lots of contributors and discussions

@name — well one thing is that there isn’t and shouldn’t be much of a line between “devs” and “the community” —- devs ARE the community and the community is devs in this project — there is no separate wall


You don’t need to just “speak with a Bitcoin dev” you can BE a Bitcoin dev by simply submitting code

Secret sauce of Bitcoin is no leaders

No authority

Consensus

Same with Ravencoin-

The system is working well as it is — I don’t see any problems at all — just giving thoughts on best practices and ideas for the future — there are several things we learned from this hard fork which can be improved on next time - mainly around communicating

There’s some bad habits from ICOS where people come in to protocol projects looking for leaders or thinking a central authority makes all decisions

It’s wise to plan for contentious forks

It’s wise to plan for contentious forks

And have healthy debate over all changes

Forks also present a risk — every code change presents a possibility of unforeseen consequences

14 Aug 2018 - Telegram

Chatturga: The v2.0.3 binaries are available to download on the ravencoin github. Assuming that everything continues to run smoothly, and no significant bugs need to be addressed, this is the version that will activate DGW and BIP9/RIP2 consensus voting for the asset layer. The devs recommend updating to this version soon (before block 338778), with a particular emphasis toward pool owners and exchanges. I'll reach out to those people at the end of the day since the devs want to do a bit more testing.

https://github.com/RavenProject/Ravencoin/releases/tag/v2.0.3

05 Aug 2018 - Telegram

Tron

Tron: Ravencoin is a protocol platform for assets and will work with anybody's infrastructure. Additional requirements can always be added by exchanges, or issuers, but are not native to the asset protocol.

Tron: You’re absolutely right. We are watching the issue closely. To put it in perspective though, our block times have been roughly 1.5x the speed of BTC during the worst of it. We have already switched to DGW on testnet and Ravencoin is slated to move to DGW on mainnet at the end of October. Our primary concern is not the code, that’s already done. Our primary concern is not allowing the chain to split. A chain split would cause far more damage and confusion than 5 minute blocks. The diff swings are a result of being profitable, then not, then profitable again, in an undamped oscillation. DGW will fix it, but it requires a hard fork where everyone must upgrade the software. This carries some risk.

Tron: x16r is the hashing algorithm, and is different than the difficulty adjustment algorithm. It will still be x16r. The difficulty adjustment tries to make it so it is 1 minute blocks no matter how many cpus/gpus are mining. Currently it adjusts by looking back 2016 blocks and making a percentage adjustment to bring it inline. There is a 4x limit, which we are close to hitting. It isn’t good but it shouldn’t get much worse.

Tron: RVN will still be RVN. The problem is that anyone that doesn’t upgrade when the algo switches over, will be on a different chain. Imagine the problems if CryptoBridge doesn’t upgrade, or Cryptopia, etc. and they have a different view. A hard fork is just a software upgrade, but it is really important that certain nodes upgrade. We have a managed upgrade already scheduled for the end of Oct that lets everyone decide on their own whether to upgrade and when enough mining nodes have upgraded, it seamlessly switches over at a set percentage.

Tron: No, shorter block times aren’t the problem. Rentable hashpower, and multipools which auto-redirect hashpower to the most profitable coin makes it more difficult to calibrate. That’s what changed.

Tron: The longest chain is the winner. We just need to make sure it is crystal clear which one that is. If we have 1/2 mining power on one chain and 1/2 on another, it gets murky. If that ever happens, just don’t transfer RVN during that time and you’ll be fine. And, if you’re mining, make sure you’re on the longest chain.

Tron: DGW will go a long way towards that. We actually want increased hashing, we just don’t want it coming and going in multi-day intervals.

Tron: I don’t think miners using a pool will need to change anything. Just make sure the pool you’re using has upgraded whenever the software is upgraded. Make sure you’re using the latest version to view/store/transfer your RVN.

Tron: My understanding is that there was a Pull Request for RVN on Ledger. I don’t know if/when that will make it into production.

Tron: Yes, unix (linux), Mac, and Windows. We need to make sure the client cross-compiles for all of them.

Tron: Yeah, there were some awful asset names. I imagine that some of the web explorers and asset marketplaces will want to run names through a filter.

Tron: There’s going to be lots of interesting opportunities. I think someone will build a marketplace for asset names.

Tron: There’s really only one chain. The problem is that when you change the diff algo, then the version of the software using the old algo sees only old algo blocks as valid, and software using the algo only sees new algo blocks as valid. The “real” one SHOULD be the new algo chain, but there’s no BOSS that says you can’t run older software. So it is really up the users to upgrade and all agree to use the newer software. I can’t compel anyone to upgrade, but it would make economic sense for everyone to use the new software. We can write software that doesn’t change the algorithm until it sees that most miners have upgraded because we can put a version number in the blocks and count the mined blocks. That’s what BIP9 does — Google it if you’re interested in how it works.

We’re hiring like crazy. Most of our hires are for tZero, Medici, and Bitsy. If you’re a great developer, you should apply. Bruce is in NH and he visits Utah and we visit him in NH.

Tron: Yes. I don’t know how trademark rules would apply. I fought two trademark battles where I felt I was in the right. I won one, and folded the other against a giant “perfect” word processing company.

Tron: There is support for that. I’m not in favor of that, in general, but it did make sense for our asset hard fork.

Tron: I hope not, because I think it would devalue RVN, but it is certainly a possibility. Interestingly enough, anyone who had RVN before that fork would have RVN and RVC, but I still think it would would be a net negative overall.

Tron: Sometimes it is cheaper to mine, and sometimes it is cheaper to buy. Right now it is cheaper to buy — until the diff adjusts. I wrote a paper on how the two are interlinked. https://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/bitcoin-value-and-mining-difficulty

Tron: Bruce and I agree that it doesn’t need shilling. Eventually, we’ll need to let more people know it exists and that it is a platform they can build on, but that isn’t even true until the end of October when assets activate on mainnet.

Tron: If there’s a Raven Classic, it probably wont have asset support.

Tron: Yes, we would like RVN to continue to be viable cash. We hope it gets used for rewards (paying all holders of your token in RVN), and for on-chain atomic swaps (paying for assets with RVN where the trade happens all at once).

Tron: I’m not 100% sure. It seems like we’re in a bear market — similar to 2014-2015. Some of it is being sold to buy into RVN, EOS, and ADA, or into ICOs which are still going strong outside the US.

Tron: I agree - kinda dumb. It is a completely arbitrary line. Enforce rules against outright fraud, but let everyone invest their money any way they choose.

Tron: I think there will be sites listing assets for sale. We’ve put “forsale” and “forsale_price” keys in the metadata spec for this reason. Brokers could scan the chain and the meta data to build a website for exchanging asset names.

Tron: https://github.com/RavenProject/Ravencoin/blob/master/assets/asset_metadata_spec.md

Tron: I will share the scripts to allow anyone to register any names they want. I’m excited to see what gets registered.

Tron: Sending assets will require a small RVN fee. I’d love to get rid of the fee, but it opens up too many attacks that don’t cost anything.

Tron: It’s been wonderful chatting with all of you. Thanks for your support of RVN. I’m working on some python scripts that’ll let you create batches of assets (with associated meta data) from a Google spreadsheet or csv. I’ll make them available next week for everyone to play with. It’ll make it easier for anyone wanting to register multiple assets.


03 Aug 2018 - Telegram

Some interesting posts from tron on telegram

Tron: http://raven-blockchain.info/ext/getmoneysupply is stalled on an old block. Needs to be switched to: https://ravencoin.network/api/supply

referring to testnet launch Tron: Thanks. We had a few glitches that we're fixing, but overall it seems to be performing as expected.

Tron: Brace yourself. The limits of free speech are being tested. FREEDOM!!!

Tron: In the qt, go to Help->Debug, then the console tab, and type listassets

Tron: I'd be interested in knowing which ones it doesn't fulfill. It is portable, fungible, divisible, durable, transferable, and limited. USD is 5 of those 6.

Tron: Michael Any wallet, explorer, exhange, etc. can use the .png. It likely will not be built into the reference client because we don't want to be downloading and showing the types of images that could be added. If you've looked at the list of assets created on testnet, you'll understand our concern.

referring to facilitating adoption Tron: Adoption - ease of use, cross platform (Windows, Mac, Linux, iOs, Android) , and secure.

Tron: We hope assets will be tradable on decentralized exchanges. I think this will happen organically as soon as some real projects are using the tokens.

Tron: Medici has investments in about 14 different companies. I expect some of them will be able to use RVN, but RVN is not being developed in support of any particular project. It has larger ambitions to be a platform for asset issuance with multi-OS support and much easier to use than ERC20.

Tron: Verhoven RVN should be a currency. We want it to have a value because phase 3 will allow paying token holders in RVN. Imagine a project that's profitable where the early supporters are rewarded (with RVN) based on the percentage of tokens they hold.

Tron: I'm not allowed to talk about tZero stuff.

Tron: I had experience with Counterparty, Mastercoin, colored coins, and open assets which had similar capabilities on top of Bitcoin. It was secure, but clunky because some bitcoin had to be sent with every asset, and the fees became prohibitively high last year. We've been able to fix these issues because we can make adjustments that the core Bitcoin developers can't make.

Tron: The ideas behind the project and using the blockchain for tokenizing assets came from Bruce Fenton, as well as the project name and logo.

Tron: I'm in talks with the leadership and developers on that project. We've agreed that Ravencoin is great once they're tokenizing the land. First stages are about recording ownership and Ravencoin doesn't fit that use case as well.

Tron: I've talked to lots of companies about their projects on RVN. Two game companies, one tokenized real-estate company, and a VC company that wants to do tokenized Reg A+ offerings.

Tron: I created a crypto accounting system called CoinCPA -- look for the podcasts from 2014. I was an early employee of Tzero. I'm a Tzero advisor. I worked for crypto company out of Hong Kong. I've helped Spera, and Bitsy which are portfolio companies of Medici Ventures.

Tron: I do have some coins. If anything bad happens to the Ravencoin chain, it will affect me personally.

Tron: It's exciting. I'm a huge fan of everything that's happening in the crypto space. I think the Ravencoin community is the best! I feel honored and blessed to be a part of the project. I really want it to succeed.

in reference to some significant purchases seen recently on cb Tron: I can say for certain it isn't me. It really don't think it's Patrick. I don't think it's Bruce, but I don't know that.

31 July 2018 - Discord 2

Reminder: careful using testnet and wallets etc - someone WILL lose money because they get confused, send real coins to the wrong place only use if you know what you are doing :smiley:

I propose that we as a community voluntarily white hat any major names like Google -/ hopefully if the real Google wants to use it the community member will give it to them at cost — but that’s optional of course

There isn’t any way to pre-reserve or verify names

But we can cooperate to register good ones

No first dibs :smiley:

White hats racing against squatters

Testnet will give people a chance to see what has been built and will also allow more contributors to easily contribute and do security testing because the code is published and everyone can be on the same page

Testnet also allows 2nd and third layer developers to see how the protocol works and build and test apps

Since the network was built first with ravencoin we already have a massive head start when mainnet is launched (versus if the network genesis and the asset layer were launched together)

This means that since racencoin already has tons of users, community members and interested parties the usability of the asset layer capabilities increases

There are a lot of us in the community who can test and build on this protocol

So - when mainnet launches :rocket: there will be a lot of people ready to jumpstart that network and build on it

I predict a lot of asset names reserved right away (it will be like domain registration races / land grab)

When mainnet is launched people will be able to immediately create real assets which will be verified by the ravencoin blockchain


29 July 2018 - Discord 2

We had mini raven sculptures hidden all around the Satoshi Roundtable

14 July 2018 - Discord 2

Ravencoin as a real open source & fair launched project will never have the captive marketing budget of an ICO — but those projects will never have the tech depth or scalability that the Ravencoin protocol has.

Icos as we know them will not be as big as securities tokens

12 July 2018 - Discord 2

The dlr is a different thing - it’s a specific tool to help crypto interface with existing wall st touting systems

Aside from this Tzero is also an exchange which will trade security tokens

11 July 2018 - Discord 2

Just one solid exchange would be very relevant

Rvn took a path more like BTC or ltc

I think an exchange will happen

There actually is a lot of raven marketing - it’s all pretty much done by volunteer community members bits be trippin etc

I think Tzero hasn’t announced exactly how they will make listing decisions — there will be lots of factors

Rvn could be appealing to any exchange because it has high interest and volume and is not a security and also its code base is based on Bitcoin so well understood

Rvn is an especially natural fit for exchanges focusing on securities tokens

11 July 2018 - Discord 2

From @Chatturga

Hello, everyone. I bring exciting news about the asset layer! Assuming that everything goes smoothly, the binaries to test the asset layer on testnet will be available for download on July 30th. Additionally, the target date for mainnet release has been tentatively set for October 31st. These dates give the community time to find any issues and for PR's to be processed - with October 31st also being the 1 year anniversary of the first Medium article about Ravencoin.

3 July 2018 - Discord 2

Have I mentioned that this is Game of Thrones?

GAME OF THRONES!

This space is very treacherous and risky - there is a ton of uncertainty.

A coin claiming they will “beat Bitcoin” is not credible — neither is it credible to say Bitcoin has a 100% chance of being both global money and the rails for all tokens with zero exceptions.

There are a few possible outcomes:

1) Bitcoin becomes the only chain, all projects become sidechains on Bitcoin - RVN and ALL other coins/ projects die completely (possible but unlikely / not certain enough to bet on 100%)

2) Bitcoin dies, other coin or coins / projects serve that need (unlikely)

3) Bitcoin becomes important money and important chain for tokens but other projects survive and serve large or niche markets 3a Raven is one of these survivors 3b it isn’t (This is the most likely scenario imho of the 3 — even if I felt an 80% chance of option 1 then it would still be prudent to support other coins in case BTC fails or in case any can develop a niche which serves one area better than BTC)

So if option 3 occurred and raven survived then it could be used in even a “small” niche of the possibly deca trillion dollar token market and end up being very important.

Cross chain atomic swaps and lots of other things will make cooperation between projects make sense — LTC is a good example - the project has never tried to be at odds with Bitcoin.

Bitcoin was always going to do tokens — that a HQ co like Blockstream is working on this is exciting and validated the entire idea. Just a month ago all the best “experts” were saying that tokens couldn’t be put on Bitcoin or a fork of Bitcoin — this is specifically why I always used Bitcoin not raven in the periscope video examples on security tokens.

When we did these demos everyone laughed — well now the smartest devs in the space are doing what we’ve been working on for a while as well (Blockstream has worked on this a long time too)

It will be great if both Bitcoin and Raven serve markets in tokens successfully - there are certainly plenty of ways that can work — I also think other projects like ada and eos will have a good chance of surviving and several platforms will thrive for different reasons.

Anyway — being that this is Game of Thrones and in the grand timeline of global money and blockchains - we are early in season 1 ... it’s a good time to be supportive of all projects and focus on building great tech rather than “beating” someone. Also — most importantly — Blockstream is NOT a competitor of Raven - Blockstream is a company with investors and some top devs and products etc. - Ravencoin is an idea and some code / software which generates a scare digital asset.

So back to the Blockstream announcement

...If this is Game of Thrones here we are over at Raven Tower okay — and Adam Back is like the Maester from Fort Block — he just moved in and says he wants to fight white walkers with the weapon he’s been working on —

Okay I could go on :joy:...

But seriously, Blockstream is not an enemy to this project - that’s absurd - they are awesome people and high quality cypherpunks and some of the smartest people in the industry.

The “competitor” isn’t Blockstream it’s Bitcoin (for tokens!) — obviously Bitcoin is the strongest chain and it’s very unlikely raven would replace it — that was never the goal, point or idea (at least from my personal POV or imho)- the better competitor is ETH who actually has serious weaknesses.

Goal as I’ve always personally seen it is to work on this specific use case on a PROTOCOL level to see if it develops advantages overall — it has had some since day one —

Just build good stuff and keep focusing

If you want to attack someone ETH is a better target but even those folks are pretty cool — better to hope the rising tide lifts all boats!!

Yeah no one should care so much what I say — centralized authorities are bad

I love this coin and project and community — this is why I’ve given what I think is a fair share of free work to the project — but my activity shouldn’t be so relevant (and neither should anyone else’s)

I don’t see it as competition and even if so it would be silly to claim this chain is stronger than Bitcoin - imho far smarter way to look at things is the way LTC and to a lesser extent cardano does: we are all in the same ecosystem

I’ve supported raven as best I can and will continue to — I’ve done about 15 speeches and a hundred tweets and 12 interviews and I’ve received death threats and nearly daily criticisms and accusations of being a scammer / pumper because of being such a vocal supporter — I’ve spent hundreds of thousands of dollars of my own money on support of raven — I’ve taken time from my family to fly to meet devs and I’ve spent hundreds of hours on everything from writing and research to design to chatting in forums or answering questions.

I receive zero pay and zero special coins or bonus for any work or commentary I do on Raven — Every hour I spend on Raven is uncompensated and I have to skip other paying work to do -

If people think it’s not enough or can do better then by all means hopefully they can step up and be spokespeople also — I offered to help others do so a while ago & will make more ppt etc when I can

Asset layer test net should be out in July

Blockstream moving into this is great news for the overall ecosystem

It’s a $40 trillion market

Personally I see it as very different

Raven is open source If you want to compete with a company you can Or use the code and software how you choose

2nd July 2018 - Discord 2

I have over 150,000 social media followers and announced Raven to over 2000 conference attendees at crypto conferences including Miami BTC and Texas Bitcoin Conference It was posted by many others aside from me and retweeted and reposted by many others

We had 4500 miners within a week and the network grew so fast that solo mining and cpu rigs were obsolete within two weeks

To claim that no one was on the network and that some secret miner dominated the mining is preposterous and easily provably false

In the very earliest days the network was widely distributed — the three largest miners (Overstock / Medici and three parties I don’t know who they are) each never reached more than 10-15% of hash power —- and that was only for a short few weeks or so in the earlier days

Since then the math can easily show that for anyone to have significant network power they would have to spend a significant amount on GPU rigs — the math & metrics behind this are trivial for anyone with a basic understanding of mining and crypto

It is simply impossible to have had a special advantage on the launch - all anyone could have possibly done is what early miners did:: take a big risk on early equipment-/

No one had any advantage whatsoever and there was absolutely no premine or set aside or insta mine at all

This is what is great about this tech - a blockchain is provable I guess at the ravencoin annual meeting we can ask early miners to raise hands

Blockstream is a company — raven is a protocol

We are not competing with Blockstream

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